Ep. 43 Healing Harmony: The Power of Music Therapy for Young Patients with Sarra Erb

I'm Lacey Jones with Elevate the Individual. Episode 43 Healing Harmony: The Power of Music Therapy for Young Patients with Sarra Erb. When today's guest shared a recent online article written about the music therapy, she provide guides for babies and young children in the hospital. I instantly knew she needed to tell her story on the show. I'm grateful she made the time to sit down with me and share her journey to landing her dream job. Not only does she share the beautiful work that she's doing, but if you listen to the end, she shares some pretty great truth bombs about working towards her goals and pushing through the struggles to overcome the challenges. I believe everyone will relate to her story, so please sit back and enjoy.

My name is Sarra Erb. I am a music therapist. A little bit about me. Let's see. I try to think of some fun things. I am a musician. That is kind of how I came to be here and where I am now. I have moved around quite a lot growing up and that's how I know lacey, I believe you were my babysitter.

Yep.

I mean, I'm like I knew you from day one because I was babysitting for your parents, and so I was taking care of your sister while they were going to school. And then I think I spent the night at your house when your parents went off to have you. And so I am like, I've known you from day.

Yeah. Yeah. Which is pretty crazy. Not a lot of people can say that. And the fact that we're still connected, it's so fun, right?

Like, thank you to the internet and Facebook. That's what I love because I've seen you kind of live your life and then all of a sudden you're like this grown woman accomplishing things. And so it's so fun to have you here. But you guys did kind of move around, so, like Moscow. I know it was a little bit of Oklahoma. Where'd you grow up?

Yeah, it's hard to say where I grew up, honestly. I think my main answer that I say is I grew up in Oklahoma because that's where I learned how to drive. That's where I graduated high school. That's where still some of my friends are. But we moved around quite a bit. We lived in Idaho, we lived in Seattle, in Texas, San Antonio, and now they're still in Oklahoma. It's the longest place they've lived somewhere. And so I claim it as home. I go back and then once I graduated high school, kind of diverged a little bit, and I went to Utah State University in Logan, got my degree there in music therapy. And then once I finished all my education aspects, which include an internship and sitting for a board examination, then I got a job out here in Arizona. So I've been here for about five years, which is insane. I don't think I've lived anywhere this long. So, yeah, I've been loving it.

You mentioned graduating from college and sitting for boards. When you went to college, did you know I'm going for music therapy? Like, did you know the path you were going to take or how did you decide what school to go to and what program to do?

Yeah, so how I decided to do music therapy, it wasn't something I knew I wanted to do in high school, but once I was in the program, it was 100% what I wanted to do. It's what got me through all of my really difficult human anatomy classes and all the classes that weren't that fun to me. It's what got me through, but leading up to it, how I found it, because it's not a really well known career. It's actually a fairly new career. It was established in the 1950s, so relatively new career compared to accounting and lawyers and all of that. But I was in high school, I knew I wanted to do something with music and just kind of palled around trying to find what I wanted to do and kind of had my heart set on BYU. I was going to go to BYU.

Because that's just what we do.

And so I got into BYU, but things really just were not working out. I couldn't figure out a place to live. I did not get into the school I wanted. And somebody from my church in Oklahoma who's a big Utah State Aggie fan, I was like, well, Sarra, you should look at Utah State. They have this degree called music therapy. And that's when I kind of got bombarded with music therapy, things that popped up in my life. It's kind of like when you're looking for a car, like a new car, and you see that car everywhere. That's what started happening with music therapy. Turns out one of my medically fragile cousins was receiving music therapy. And I got to observe a little bit and talk to that music therapist and realized it was something I wanted to do. So kind of very quickly jumped on the boat of Utah state and auditioned for their program within like a month of finding out they had a program, which is kind of insane to think about, but I auditioned and I thought I tanked it, but I actually did really well. I got a scholarship based on merit, so the out of state tuition was waived.

Oh, wow.

And everything was just pointing me to go there. And so I got a scholarship from the mute school of music, one from the university, and housing worked out wonderfully, and every sign was just pointing to go there. And so that's kind of how I ended up there. And I was really lucky. I didn't have to change my major. I didn't hate music therapy once I was in it. And so, yeah, that's kind of a long winded answer, but that's kind of how I got into music therapy.

It's so exciting, right? It's intriguing, is the word I'm looking for, I think, because you mentioned an audition. What did you have to do for an audition?

It's a little bit different than other degree majors, because when you're in college, you can just kind of declare your major. But since it's through the school of music, which most music therapy programs are, you have to audition through the school of music because you're a musician, that's part of your degree. So to get into the music therapy program, you must get into the university first.

Okay.

And then you kind of declare your program, which is the more difficult part of the school of music. So you fill out, like, a normal application that's more specific towards your musical abilities and what you've done, like your musical resume, almost. And then from there, they usually want you to come in person. And so they asked me to prepare a song on the piano, a song on the guitar, and then a song on my main instrument. And they also had a sight reading portion, which essentially means that they hand you some music and they ask you the day of and they ask you to play it sight on scene, so you don't get time to prepare it. You want to see your ability just to improvise. Yeah, improvise, but also just read the music and play it.

Yeah.

It was actually really funny in my audition why I thought I tanked it was because I had learned to play the guitar for the audition, and I was playing London Bridge, which is two chords. It's a very easy, very simple song. And my later professor, the director of the program, asked me how long I played the guitar for, and I laughed and was like, I don't know how to play the guitar. And I thought I tanked it because I said, I don't know how. And I was able to explain, no, I actually taught. She's like, so you walked into this interview and picked up the guitar and played London Bridge? And I was like, no, I learned how to play the guitar for this. It's something I'm trying to get better on and something I would work on if I got in the program. And then my professor years down the road was like, that was one of my favorite interview moments.

Could you imagine? And I just little different reactions where she's just, like, beaming and like, oh, my gosh, look at this individual, how talented they are. And you're like, oh, I totally tanked it, right?

How stupid of me to say I don't know how to play the guitar when I literally just did.

Oh, I love it. Okay, what instruments do you play?

Yeah, so in college or in a school of music, you have to declare a main instrument. This is the instrument that you'll study throughout your time at the university. So mine is voice. That's what I studied in high school. I sang in choirs. I did karaoke growing up. I just love singing, and so that was my main instrument. And each university has different requirements. Mine was four semesters of private voice lessons and a jury at the end, which is you sing for the vocal department and they rate you, essentially, and give you a grade. So voice is my primary. And then I play the guitar, which is funny. Now, that's the instrument I'm most confident in, I would say. Yeah, I play the ukulele, I play the piano. And then there's a lot of really random ones. I play the ukulele, banjo, I play the banjo. I play percussion. I play the drum kit a little bit, and then like random percussive instruments, I play the organ.

I think that's all of them.

I don't play many band or orchestra instruments.

It's mainly just random instruments.

And is it a little bit like, I wonder what I could do on that instrument. Let me try and pick that up and see what I can figure out with that one.

Yes.

That's a true talent, my friend. That is awesome, because that is not my talent, so I really respect that. And then with this, I know for a while you had your Instagram account where you were posting your songs. Do you still do that from time to time?

I think it was something in my internship that I was doing to kind of help me not grow to dislike music. I don't know, it's interesting when your talent and something that you've loved and your outlet becomes your career, it's interesting, the shift it has in yourself. So for me, singing and playing music for myself is something that is harder to do. Just because I play and sing all day, it's hard to be like, okay, let me set aside time. And so through my internship, it was a really fun way for me to kind of express myself a little bit and play the songs I wanted to play. But as I've become more busy, I haven't been posting as much, but every so often it's been like once a year I'll post a song. I hope maybe as time goes on, I'll be able to post more just because it is fun, and it's fun for people to hear what I'm working on and what songs I like to sing.

Oh, you're amazing. And I loved it was just so smooth. And I think you played the ukulele or guitar.

Yeah. And sometimes the piano would make an appearance.

Yes. And just purely talented. And so that's kind of where I learned about your musical talent, was as you shared those, and you talk about musical therapy as your degree. What is that?

So I have a Bachelor's of science in music therapy, which is pretty cool. Some universities do Bachelor of arts, but I think Utah State is unique because it's bachelor's of science. And so my degree is kind of like a half music, half psychology, family sciences, human development degree. And so that's kind of what backs what I do. So sometimes people kind of can question my scope, because it does sound like I'm just playing or just entertainment, but there's a lot more behind it. So music therapy, for those that don't know, is an evidence based practice where we use music to address non musical goals within a therapeutic relationship. So many different populations we can hit, like, I'm in the NICU, so the infants freshly out of the womb to all the way to death and dying with palliative care. And that's something I've worked in as well, and then everything in between. So we can work with behavioral health individuals, people that have struggles or not even struggles, but need outlets in different ways and coping skills to grow. We can work with individuals with different disabilities or different abilities. That's where I've spent a majority of my career, is with individuals with different abilities. Yeah, there's just so many avenues. We can use music to address non musical goals, which is the point of it. So we're not entertaining. We're not just playing and having fun. There is a goal behind it. And oftentimes we like to have our patients, our clients, or whoever we're working with, help us come up with what goals they want to grow and develop.

That is amazing.

I love it.

Okay, so you graduate from Utah State. Then what happens? Where do you go from there?

Yeah. So after graduation, you're not technically graduated yet. You don't get your degree until you finish your internship, which is of your degree program. But I still walked with my friends because I wanted to. They give us that option, which is nice. Once you finish your lectures and your on campus work, you do your 1200 hours internship, which roughly equates to six months.

Okay.

I went home for mine, actually, because most of these internships are unpaid, which is something that we are trying to work on and improve on within our community. Internships should not be unpaid. You definitely get paid for the work you're doing. But once I completed or I went home to do this internship, I worked at a pediatric rehabilitation hospital. So kind of the in between. They don't need to be in the hospital at that acute setting anymore, but they also aren't quite ready to go home. And so working with the rehabilitation team, working with occupational, speech, and physical therapy to help our patients there. So I was there for six months okay.

And did internship. And then how do you decide the next step and where that next step is?

Yeah. So the next step after internship is sitting for your board examination.

Okay.

Just like a three hour test. Like, most exams are really hard, a lot of pressure, but it's not that bad once you finish it. And then after you are board certified, you become a board certified music therapist or an MTBC, and you recertify every five years. I just did mine, which is crazy.

Congratulations.

I'm good for another five years.

Nice.

Then you can look for jobs and start applying for jobs. Sometimes you can apply for them before.

With the understanding that you have to become board certified.

Yeah, I just started applying, and I knew I wanted to look into places where I could make friends and meet new people, and Arizona was on the.

List, so I ended up here.

Okay, so the current role that you have now, is this where you landed after your certification, or have you had some steps in between?

There's definitely been steps in between. So this job is kind of my dream job. It's kind of my end goal. This is where I wanted to be, and I'm so grateful to be here and grateful for all of my steps along the way that got me here. So when I first moved out here, I was working for a nonprofit company that had me wearing lots of different hats, which was a great learning experience, and I got to work with a lot of different patients and clients and kiddos, and that was wonderful. I was there for about three years through the pandemic as well.

Oh, wow.

Saw a lot of kids virtually. It was really cool to learn that we could do that. That was an avenue to reach people, and they really appreciated it, the families did, because we got to give them an outlet and some normalization their life from there. After those three years, I worked for an interdisciplinary clinic, which essentially just means a bunch of disciplines all working together. So we had speech therapy, occupational therapy, and physical therapy, and I actually created their music therapy department. And so we worked on building that program up and getting them to have as much music therapy for their clientele as we could.

That is awesome. Like a mover and a shaker, getting in there and making things happen and establishing. And you're a smart cookie, so that is very talented. I love it. So where you are now, you said it's your dream job.

Yeah.

How did you find it, and at what point did you know it was a thing, and what is it? I guess.

Yeah. So my job where I am now, my previous two jobs were specifically working with individuals with different developmental disabilities and different abilities, and so that was really what I focused on for my first, like, three and a half years of my career. And I always knew I wanted to be in a pediatric hospital setting, which is where I am now. It's a very coveted position. There's only one or two per hospital, and there's not that many children's hospitals. And so within our field, for whatever reason, this population is highly sought after, and so it's pretty competitive to get a job. So I was just kind of, like, building up my experiences in order to be able to be a good fit. And so I saw this job get posted, and it was a part time position, and I was like, I can't turn it down. And so I applied for it. Not really sure what I was going to do. Ended up getting it. I was like, oh, no, what am I going to do? Because I can't live off a part time salary. I'm my own person. I sustain myself. I'm single. I'm an individual person trying to help myself through this life. What I ended up doing was reducing my hours at the clinic I was at just so I could stay full time and still have benefits. I was working 52 hours a week in order to do this job here and just kind of burning the candle on both ends.

And so after a lot of prayers.

And stuff, I was trying to figure out what I was going to do. And turned out my predecessor, Olivia, she actually went back to nursing school, and some doors opened, and I was able to move to full time here at our hospital and sadly, leave my other job. As much as I loved it there, this is always my end goal. And so I'm here now, full time, 40 hours a week, back to normal, breathe a little bit, have a social life again, and do laundry and get groceries. I always knew I wanted to be here, and now I'm here full time, which is pretty wonderful.

Oh, I love it.

Okay, so then maybe walk us through, like, a typical day at work for you now.

Yeah, it's kind of funny because every day is different. We're philanthropically funded, and so we don't have a quota of how many individuals we see a day.

How does your schedule work?

Yeah, so it just kind of depends on me, and it depends on our census. It's interesting. Children's hospitals can have waves of being super busy and then waves of not being very busy, and so a typical day just kind of depends on who's admitted that day, who needs to be seen, and so it depends on the patients, honestly. So a typical day kind of how.

I like to base my day is.

I like to start my morning in the NICU, which is the neonatal intensive care unit. That's where our infants are usually premature with different problems that they need to work on before they are safe in the open world. That's usually where I start, just because they're our most fragile, and I don't want to take any of the germs from our tower, which is our pediatric tower, to the NICU.

That's kind of how I justify that.

And so I go see these infants. We work on different the goals in the NICU include they include developmental interaction, giving them developmental opportunities helping them with multi sensory processing and introducing them to purposeful and positive touch. So that's usually what I do in the NICU with music as our tool that I use in there. Then from there, I usually will look at our census seat, who's in our pediatric tower. I serve mostly inpatient with a couple of outpatient options as well.

Okay.

I serve in our pediatric intensive care.

Unit, our general floor, which is just.

A lot of appendectomies and a lot of appendixes that need to get removed and all that are really snotty, gross respiratory kids.

Sounds about right for a kids unit. Right.

And then the other floor where I spend a good amount of time is our hematology oncology floor, which is blood diseases and cancers. And I like to prioritize. And since there's only one of me, I can't see all of these kids every day. It's just kind of impossible. So I like to prioritize kids that are alone, that parents can't be at bedside or if they've been here for a really long time. Some of our patients here are here for months on end and it can.

Become not a fun, it is not a fun.

Nobody wants to be here. But if they're here for extended amount of times, it can be really detrimental to them and they can contract other health issues. And so I just like to prioritize them and give them an outlet as well.

There's something that you mentioned, the positive touch, right. To introduce those little babies to what positive touch is. I mean, I'm not medical, but as I hear you kind of talk about that, I think, well, yeah, if they're that small and in medical situations and there's IVs and needles and monitors and sensors, touch is maybe not seen as a positive thing. There's pain that goes along with it. And so for you to introduce positive touch to it am I long tracks here of what the purpose of that is?

Yeah, thousand percent.

Yeah.

The positive touch in the NICU is for exactly that reason they don't get a lot of control. That's actually one of the goals too that I use in our pediatric towers, opportunities for choice and control. And some people will be like, oh, well, infants, they can't talk, they can't tell you they can't make, but they totally can, just in their own way. So we watch for nonverbal cues. We watch for them. Like, if we watch their face, we watch their hands. And that's something that we're trained in, that comes with the additional training to work in the NICU. And that positive touch is one of the greatest tools, I think, that music therapy can provide in that setting because the infants medically necessary have to be touched. They have to be poked, they have to have their diaper changed, which is not comfortable. And so I feel really lucky that.

I get to bring this tool and.

This new coping skill for them and for them to learn and not be so fearful of it as they grow.

Well, I'm sitting here from a mother's perspective, and what a huge gift you provide for these parents and family members in a time of just stress and fear right. To provide such a positive experience as much as possible and kind of opening that door. And then you mentioned spending time, like, top priority, spending time with kids and infants and those individuals who don't have family at their bedside. It makes me just want to cry because I would just oh, my gosh, thank you. Because that's what I'm sure those patients need. And so can you speak a little bit to that and kind of what you've seen in your experience as you work with those individuals?

Yeah, I think this is part of the reason why it's hard to say. This is what my typical day looks like.

Right.

I just go where the need is, quite honestly. But, yeah, our sessions that I have with the kids that in the tower, it just kind of depends on what they like and what they want to do that day. I always give them the choice. I never force them to do music therapy. Most of the times they want to because it's fun, and we get to do something that they never thought they'd be able to do here. And so trying to think of a.

Good story for you, because those are.

Always, like, the most powerful way to share what I do is through examples.

Of what I get to do.

So we had a patient who came in because he was having headaches, and he had two older brothers, and turns out the headaches and blurry vision all kind of culminated to this patient had a brain tumor.

Okay.

And nobody really was expecting it. It's not really something that it's like, oh, I have a brain tumor. I'm going to go to the hospital. It catches people off guard. And so family was upset for very valid, very rightfully so. And so my kind of tool, thinking about ways that I could help this individual, he played piano, and I was.

Like, this is a really good way.

For me to get my foot in the door and see if this is something he'd be interested in doing. And so I met with the family and met the patient, and we just didn't really talk about his brain tumor at all. We didn't talk about any of the medical stuff. I got to help him be a normal kid and help his family be reminded that he's just a normal kid and he's still himself.

Just because he has this big diagnosis.

And big problems and big struggles ahead, that doesn't change who he is. And so we played the piano together. This is pre surgery, pre biopsy, before everything was confirmed. But I took him a piano so he could play on his own. And he requested that I came back the following day. And at my hospital, we have a dedicated music therapy space. It's opened, it's designed not to look like you're in the hospital.

That's amazing.

Beautiful. If you ever get a chance to Google Sophie's place, I feel so blessed and lucky that we have one.

But I was able to bring this.

Patient and his family down the day before his biopsy and procedure to look and see and confirm what was in the tumor. And it was just a way for them to have an outlet, a space of respite. Parents were able to sit down and relax while I played instruments with the brothers and goofed around and play with them and gave them control and choices and options of things they could do and let them just be rambunctious kids. And it was such a sweet, tender moment having them in this space. And then after his biopsy, I was able to visit him again at bedside, and we actually started playing a new instrument, and we learned how to play the guitar or the ukulele, so I taught him how to play the ukulele, and he was all about it.

And so it's just little things that.

Build up, and I build rapport with patients and build whatever they need is what I can help provide. And that, I think, is what so.

Special about what I do well.

And the word that you use is respite. And I see that from my perspective of those parents walking into a room, and you're not only serving the individual patient, you are serving siblings, parents, the family. And so a lot of times, we focus on how when you elevate an individual, when you provide the tools or relief that they need, the help that they need, they can then turn to family. And as a group, develop and grow, and then they turn to their community, which is really what you've done, is you started on that individual level, not just with the patient, but with yourself. You had to get to that point. It's not like you just right, like, you weren't just born. I know this. You weren't just born and like, all right, I'm a music therapist. You had to grow, you had to develop, you had to take chances, you had to put yourself out there. You had to have success and failures and learning through all that as an individual so that you can then turn towards, this is like, to me, your family and your community, right, to lift them. And then you're working through that process again, and the cycle repeats. And so that's why I was so fascinated with what you're doing and working with families. Have parents expressed gratitude for the program? This might be an obvious question, but what are some of the comments that you get from family members?

Just like, gratitude.

They're just thankful and happy that I visited.

And honestly, it's. Not me. I know I'm kind of the steward of the space and I get to bring music therapy to people, pretty much any music therapist, any qualified music therapist could. And so their gratitude is, I think, towards me, but more broadly towards music therapy, I think is where it should be directed. But a lot of just gratitude and I get a lot of when can you come back? We want you to come back. I think parents see the impact it has on their child and they see the smiles, they see the joy, which they might not have seen if their child is really ill. And so a lot of gratitude, I think, is the.

Biggest comment that I get from parents.

And then also from staff. The staff is really grateful as well, because they see how it works. And I build rapport with the staff.

As well, because I can't. I could, but I don't like to.

Go into a room without nurses permission. And so once they see that first session with the first patient that I have of theirs, they usually will see me and go in, go in, just go see them. Like, you don't even need to ask. Go for it. They're going to love you.

Yeah.

I think it's just been really special.

To see families and staff just be.

Grateful for music therapy and watch them want to be fierce advocates for my profession.

I'm like going to be an advocate over here because I again, didn't know it existed. That was not really my world or realm, but by you sharing, that amazing. And so I also want to point out, and this where I might get a little emotional because you mentioned saying, well, any therapist could walk in this space and technically, on paper, they might be able to just have a random therapist to walk into the space. But I really think that you have gifts and talents and you've developed them, and it's not just about the title and the tools that you use. You have to bring you to that space. Right. And not all therapists are going to be able to stand at a patient's door and the nurse will just wave them on in and not question that that is who you are. And that's not something that can be a little bit trained. You know what I mean? You have those gifts that you've had to develop, you've had to take chances, you've had to learn through the failures. And so I'm like, don't you dare downplay who you are and your talents because your personality and I think your God given qualities that you've continued to develop bring a lot of light to that program in that room and those families. So don't go thinking that any other therapist can do your job.

Thank you.

Yes. So what are you most proud of in all of this journey as you've developed your talents and then shared it with others.

I think what you just said kind of reminded me. I think I'm most proud that I'm here.

It is a very competitive spot that.

I'm in, and it's difficult to get this position that I got. And so I think besides my talents and my skills, which I am always going to be proud of and always going to be very grateful for, I think the biggest thing I'm proud of is that I'm here. I really struggled through school. It wasn't something education is not something that comes easily to me.

I remember there were days in, I.

Want to say maybe late elementary, early middle school where I struggled reading. I couldn't focus on reading. It was not something I was good at. So my mom literally sat at our kitchen table with us, teaching me how to read because it was just something I didn't know how to do at kind of a stage where I should know, like I should have met that criteria, that developmental milestone, the fact that I graduated college, things like this that I never thought I'd be able to do. But because there was passion behind what.

I wanted to do, and I wanted.

To do music therapy, and then there's only one way to do it. You have to get your bachelor's degree or your master. You have to have some higher level of education.

I think my mom said to me.

And she might roll her to eyes, that I'm sharing this, but when I graduated college, she was very emotional, as was I.

And she said, I didn't think you.

Would graduate high school. I didn't think you would get here. And here I am getting emotional thinking about it too, that if there's something that you really want in this world, you can do it. You just have to have that passion and know what you want. And if it's something that you truly.

Want, it makes those harder classes worth it.

It makes those harder trials worth it. Nothing good in life comes easy. There's that cliche. And I truly believe it, because getting my degree and being where I am is something I'm the most proud of.

Because I didn't think I would graduate.

High school, let alone graduate college and do it successfully, passing with good grades, it's something that I had to work on really hard. So I'm very grateful for my parents for that as well. They taught me to work hard. They didn't come from easy circumstances either. And so they really taught me how to work my tail off, and if there's something, I want to work for it and to work hard.

But yeah, your mom is a strong, smart, hardworking woman. And so to sit down with you and work through what you needed with the reading help and that sort of thing, that is who she is. And so I'm sure that both your parents have just poured into you any help and guidance that you need.

Yeah, just seeing them and too, I.

Think it was really eye opening to me. My mom made that comment. Not in a mean way, right. She meant it in the way that I am so proud of you for working so hard to get here. And so to see that pride in.

My parents eyes that I made it.

This far, I made it. That was such a special moment and.

It'S something that I'll treasure forever.

And I'm just so grateful for both of them because I know I would not be here if it wasn't for them and their guidance. Yeah, they're pretty amazing.

They're awesome. All right, well, thank you. Thank you for sharing your story and who you are and especially within this developing field and occupation. I think it's amazing. I think that you will take this and I think you'll advance it and develop it into something that's even better and pull in your other talents and use your knowledge to grow and develop in different ways. And so that in 510 years, we'll be like, yeah, this didn't exist either, but I'm sure you'll see a need and you'll get after it and develop a pretty cool program. So your patients are lucky, the families are so lucky to have you. Any last message that you want to share?

I think my biggest message, I think.

The thing that I've processed through in.

This conversation that we've had is that no goal is too big and that.

If there's something that you want, you can go for it. And the worst thing that's going to happen is people are going to say no, or one person's not going to like your idea and you'll have to move on to a different one. I don't think I mentioned this, but.

Getting this job, I had applied to.

I think, like 15 children's hospitals before I got into this position. And so people are going to say no, but the right person will say yes. And so don't give up just because you've heard no a thousand times and really find that passion behind whatever goal you want or whatever you want out of this life. Find the passion and that's what's going.

To propel you forward.

That's beautiful because you can take that back to when you applied to BYU and you were getting those no. But then once your ear was turned to this option and know, kind of hear that more and focus on that more, how the doors opened. And so maybe our no's just point us in the right direction of that one yes. That we need to pursue. And so that's a great perspective to have. So thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you again to Sarra for sharing her journey and reminding us to just.

Work hard and work through as we get after our goals because it can lead to some pretty amazing places. Thank you, Sarra, for all the work that you're doing. I know those families are grateful for you as well. And thank you, friends, for joining in. We'll see you next week.